Appendix Three presents transcripts of interviews with four of the teachers involved in the study, here referred to by their pseudonyms for ethical reasons related to confidentiality.
| David: | Let's talk about the program as a whole for starters - my involvement in the class and the team, um, and how you've seen that evolving or changing...has that...? |
| Candace: | Yeah I think it has. I think basically it's evolved from both sides, which I think's been exciting, because we, I mean, I accepted that you had the knowledge but looking within the team I ... it's evolved in two different ways, it's evolved with the Year 8s differently than what it's evolved with the Year 7s, and ... I can't say too much about the 7s, but with the Year 8s, um, I always accepted that you had the knowledge, the scientific knowledge, but we didn't know our parameters, we had to get used to our parameters, and... but once we actually got used to our parameters, what's happened is that it's sort of integrated itself and fallen over itself as far as I'm concerned, and that you've come out of science and gone into the integrated approach using all the rest of it. I have gone the other way, I've gone into science, so I think it's been sort of like a cross-fertilization of ideas. |
| David: | OK, that's one of the issues I wanted to talk about is, is that...one of the aims of this was to make you feel more confident teaching science next year if you're doing it... do you feel as though it's done that? |
| Candace: | Absolutely! Yeah, but I still think that I'm going to need, on occasions, expert advice somewhere. At least I now know where to go, where to look it up, how to form it, how use a lab, how to get the information to do the experiments, but I really think that I need expertise in bouncing off ideas to actually integrate them, because I really do fear that, because it is my weaker subject, that I will go to the safety net of "Here's the experiment, do it"... |
| David: | Mmm, keeping it separate. What about things like the nature of science, the nature and purpose of science and things like that - do you feel confident with those, or is it more you now feel confident with facts and where to find them. |
| Candace: | I've always felt confident with the nature of science, I think that's because of my technology background - it may be slightly different but at least I...I can now see more connections, I can see... but for me, it was two things - where to go to get the information, how to actually formulate it so that makes sense to the kids, and is ... at their level I didn't have an issue because I'm at their level, I don't have an issue there. But I think the other important thing with that is to make it interesting, and I knew what I wanted to do, I had ideas, but I needed someone to say "Yeah but you've gotta do it this way" and so... get the science - it's the science base. |
| David: | Well, it's the science... the science teaching base, as much as anything else. |
| Candace: | Yes it is, 'cos I haven't got it, I mean there's no doubt, you can't ... I don't think without scaffolding that people who aren't science based, they're all going to have difficulties. I mean yes, all right, there's certain things you can do, but I do not know...exactly what level I should go to with Year 8s, what they need for Yr 9, what they need for Yr 10, and... |
| David: | Yeah. Well there's an idea that Shulman uses: pedagogical knowledge - general generic knowledge about how to teach, and (Candace: I've got that) obviously you've got heaps of that. Content knowledge about science - not so much, (Candace: Not so much, but getting there) but knowing where to find it and so on. But then he talks about pedagogical content - knowing how to teach science specifically, things that are ... and that's probably where you feel that... |
| Candace: | Yes, I do... I mean, not in the integrated set, that's easy. It is not that it's just actually to get a particular scientific concept over to the kids in the right way, right shape and right form. I don't have that knowledge, and I have not got three years or four years to spend going back and researching that in order for me to do it, and because it's just counter-productive, I think. |
| David: | So, is that maybe a weakness of this (ie the Arcadia middle school) model? (Candace: Yes, I think it is.) That all the teachers do have that problem? |
| Candace: | Oh look, I can tell you that science in Year 8 has not been done particularly well in certain blocks, because they don't have that base. But then, also, same in sport, that's another specialised area, so you've gotta be careful. |
| David: | Yeah, so there's... different teachers have picked it up and run with it, differently, based on their personalities and based on different things - I mean Lisa's really taken it, but she already had quite a strong science interest. |
| Candace: | But you see I've had a strong primary science interest, so I'm quite fine there. Teaching 7s I wouldn't have a problem, not really, it's just getting that extra stuff on top that I had to re-learn, but if somebody whacked me into a Yr 10 - I could do it, eventually, but at what cost, to the kids I had then? |
| David: | Mmm. OK, talking about - you talked earlier about getting our expectations and things...up to speed. I think our project this final semester has been really productive (Candace: Yes)...maybe I should have been starting to do that earlier. One reason I wasn't was because I was hoping to get teachers to take more of a leading role. But maybe that was an expectation that wasn't - that I should have been providing more structure? |
| Candace: | No, I don't think you can say that - I think the thing is, we evolved to that, and we evolved to that together, and when we actually got that rather good idea, it was a bounce of ideas from the two of us. I don't think you could say that you could have done that for us at the beginning (David: No) same as I couldn't have done... |
| David: | In fact, if I'd come in with a package as finished as that at the beginning (Candace: Oh..) It probably would have been a package, it would've been... |
| Candace: | It would have been another package (David: A prescriptive...) I think so... |
| David: | Whereas in fact people have actually sparked off it, towards the end this time. |
| Candace: | Yeah, I think ... it's somewhere that you have to go to, you have to lead to, from somewhere, and you can't - I mean yeah all right it's.... |
| David: | Something that can be delivered from the Mount sort of thing... |
| Candace: | Right - no it can't be, because that is a personal package, people may pick that up and say "that's garbage" because they haven't seen the stuff that goes behind it. But no, we could not have done that at the beginning, I don't think. Now what happened next year, given the same scenario, which is not possible, but... that really ... I don't ... I just wonder whether it would go off the boil - whether it was a one off and here we go. But what it has done for me is, next year, if I end up teaching science, (if I'm in 7/8 I will, if I'm in 9 I won't), it's given me a very good springboard, because it's brought - what it's brought is science into the context of my knowledge of integration, which has ... helped me. |
| David: | And that's one of the big foci of the school, and different people are doing it to different extents, you know...some of the classrooms.... |
| Candace: | I still say the kids need base knowledge... |
| David: | ...are not very integrated at all. But yeah, can the base knowledge be delivered in an integrated from, or do you deliver the base knowledge and then start to integrate it? |
| Candace: | Gosh, that's a... I think you've gotta deliver it and then integrate it. Some of it can be done in integrated form, but I don't think all of it can - I think you're gonna have to, you have to use whatever to suit to get it across. |
| David: | You may develop the context and then say "Hey we need to do a bit of science here to actually get into it". |
| Candace: | That's right, I mean you come at it from both ends, you can say "Look this is the content we'll build it this way and we'll write something to suit the content" which sort of happened this time, or you can go the opposite. It really does depend on what you're trying to deliver. |
| David: | And in a way you're modelling life long learning if you do that (Candace: Yeah), because you're finding the problem and then going and researching to answer the question. |
| Candace: | You see now with these kids, my next project ... I mean I won't have these kids, but for these children what would be rather fascinating is take what we've learnt and then actually start introducing negotiation. That would be the next, to me, logical step because these kids are used to working in this form, and say "Hey, we've got this to learn, these are the skills in science that you have to learn", and then sort of bringing them into the discussion and bringing them into building .... |
| David: | Yeah, negotiation's something I've been thinking about... and is that something you also have to build up to? You almost have to give them skills in negotiation, because we've spent seven years, (Candace: Oh you do) delivering... |
| Candace: | Oh, I've learnt that to my cost, I learnt that last year. You can't just go in... |
| David: | By just going in and saying "Hey kids, let's negotiate!" |
| Candace: | I did it, what I thought was superbly well, I did it Bean and Brodhagen method, I did it right down the line, exactly what they said to do - and it didn't work. So I think there's a flaw in their reasoning (David: Which is?) Which is that you have to skill-base kids before you can use the skill in order for them to skill themselves. But that goes anywhere - that's technology, that's maths, that's whatever... |
| David: | Yeah, it's life - you don't just expect somebody to start doing ...anything. |
| Candace: | Yeah, and ... actually group work - how to group, how to cooperate, how to work with - I mean all that has to be done. |
| David: | Yeah, it's just not a matter of coming in and saying "Hey group work's wonderful, go and work in a group", (Candace: No) there are skills involved. |
| Candace: | No, and I also think that the individuals have to be... um, looked after, too - 'cos some just can't group work, they just can't work in a group. But, as for science, I think I've done rather well, but because I had someone with experience, but the other thing is, not only experience, but who thought in a similar way to me, I think that's important. |
| David: | So there's a certain compatibility there of... |
| Candace: | Yeah, to make this run you've gotta be compatible - you have, because you can do it in the other way but... |
| David: | Well in some other classrooms it hasn't run as well, because there hasn't been that basic... |
| Candace: | It doesn't mean to say it hasn't run... |
| David: | Was that compatibility partly because we already had a friendship from other things that we'd done last year, or... |
| Candace: | Yes, you can't say no, I don't think so, but... I think that was part of it but I also think because one was from strength, and one was strength in another area - you were the strength in the science, and I'm not trying to butt up against you because I knew you were sort of superior in your knowledge there, and I had the strong teaching base of integration and without, with no disrespect I think that you would say that I had the superior knowledge in that area (David: Yeah), so really what we were doing were coming from two areas of strength mixing (David: Depending on each other's strengths) on equal level - it doesn't matter whether you're from Curtin and I'm from wherever, it makes no difference. I think the problem you can have is if you've got two very strong people in the same area - I think that would be an interesting concept. |
| David: | Or if there's not that trust that's built up though, because I think, you know, with one of the other teachers that she hasn't trusted me, and if anyone else comes past and says "Hey I wouldn't teach that content with Yr 8s", she'll believe them (Candace: Oh, trust...), and not accept... |
| Candace: | But then you see that's all to do with risk-taking - you've gotta be able to take a risk, you've gotta be able to let go of the reins - this is part of life learning, and you can't stand there on your autocratic throne and say "this is my class - you come in but you do as I tell you" - well that's fine, you're gonna get one sort of method of learning and teaching. |
| David: | Yeah, that's right, it's either a true collaboration, or it's.... |
| Candace: | Yeah - I'm gonna throw a question at you while you're questioning me - Did you feel that you had equal rights in this classroom with me and the kids? How did you feel? |
| David: | I think so, yeah. In fact it's sometimes comfortable for me to be able to say "Go and ask the boss" to the kids, because I do see it as being your place and your group and I honour that, but I also didn't feel... I felt that trust from you, you know - that whatever I chose to do you trusted that I had good educational reasons for doing it, and supported me in it, whereas... |
| Candace: | That's funny, 'cos you say "Go and ask the boss", I say "Go and ask the expert"! So there you go, you can see that the kids accepted that - they were happy. |
| David: | And I think maybe that's ... yeah, the kids actually realised that we respect one another - that's probably important as well. |
| Candace: | But they knew who to go - this is good - they knew who to go to get whatever information - if they wanted pure science they just automatically gravitated to you, and of course... and other things to me. So the kids realise that there's different strengths in teachers, and I think that's learning in itself (David: That's a skill in itself) Oh gosh yeah - but then these are extraordinary kids. |
| David: | There's a couple of individuals that I wouldn't mind talking about a bit. One is Adrian that we were talking about this morning. I mean Adrian's still a naughty boy, basically...(laughs) |
| Candace: | I think Adrian's gonna be a naughty boy until he hits.... he'll be 23 going on 9. |
| David: | Probably, yeah. But giving him the responsibilities has helped him to... |
| Candace: | Oh yes, he's very good, actually he's very good in that role. |
| David: | When he's given a responsibility to do something - or when the task suits him (both laugh) |
| Candace: | Actually, he treats responsibility with great respect, and he's different than other kids, because he actually realises that it is a responsibility and he takes it very seriously. The other thing with him is he's different because he accepts whatever - I don't like the word punishment; correction perhaps - he accepts them, and is quite happy to do that. |
| David: | But is that - I think in a way that's a strength of all your group, and of your approach though, that you've made it very explicit: you're responsible for your behaviour - these consequences are logical, you know - so it's not... |
| Candace: | He explodes with others, that's interesting... |
| David: | There's that sort of meta-level of saying "You're responsible for your behaviour - I'm not responsible for how you behave" |
| Candace: | Yeah, that's right, but as well as that you've gotta - I think the kids have gotta understand that ultimately you are responsible for the class and you have a high level of responsibility - in fact you're the boss (laughs) |
| David: | Yeah, and you can make that very explicit, and say "I have accountability for these things". |
| Candace: | They know that, but, if you saw that young man perform with other teachers it's quite incredible - he turns...he develops horns and a tail. He does, that's his... this is something that I would like to study or go on further and that... with me these kids are great. I just wonder whether, by giving them all this responsibility that they do take, um, responsibility for their own learning, if they hit an autocratic teacher next year, I have great concern because ... |
| David: | Or they'll even try it on with me though (Candace: Oh they will) if you're out of the room or something (Candace: Of course they do), they try it on... and I have to then... |
| Candace: | Fiona, they try it with Fiona. So I wonder whether it's a strength or a weakness from me... which is quite fascinating, because I try and... I'm not a possessive teacher, I don't say "they're my kids and don't you dare come near" I don't do that, I try to encourage them to go to other teachers and respect everybody, all the rest of it but... the interesting issue is: by not being autocratic, by not being this authoritative figure stuck up there that they can hate, am I doing them a disservice. Because they do it...(a) I think they do it because they respect me, they also respect themselves, but they do it because they like what happens in here. |
| David: | I was just going to say - do we undervalue relationship. You know, they have skills with this meta stuff, but they really have a relationship with you. (Candace: Very much so) And I think we undervalue that. |
| Candace: | And I think we undervalue that. I just wonder whether it's manipulative - I question "is it manipulative?" I don't know, I have no idea - I can't teach any other way so therefore I may be manipulative without reason. I try not to be - but if you've got kids that like... |
| David: | I think each other teacher has to develop a relationship, and the first phases are gonna be tough. And your first phases were with this bunch... |
| Candace: | Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean every phase and every new bunch is tough, but... |
| David: | But once the relationship's established...I think Simon's the other one that's interesting to talk about, because he's really - I don't see him as being a naughty boy, in here. |
| Candace: | No he's not, not at all. (David: I see him as...) Very mature, very mature - he's a good 18 months ahead of most of my kids in their immaturity, not in age. I mean he's got his steady girl friend and... he's really like a little Year 10 in a Year 8 class in a Year 8 body, although his bodies quite big, but he... his father gave insight into that, he said "but with Simon he's always had to respect - he respects people - he doesn't respect many but when he does he'll kill for them", he said, "and you've gained his respect" |
| David: | Mmm, he respects people, not offices or... |
| Candace: | Yeah, that's right, so much so that he said if I'm teaching Year 9 he's requested that he has me again, which'll kill me (laughs), no, but ... so that's interesting 'cos he's a different case, he's totally different, because he will stand up and he will say "excuse me, these are my rights", and this has got him into deep deep water, before he came along to me. But what was quite fascinating was, I was the one he ran to, I was the one he cried on, I was the one he said "I really need it", almost giving me a hug sort of thing, which you wouldn't believe from that kid... 'cos he's a heavy boy |
| David: | So was it naughtiness... |
| Candace: | Frustration, sense of injustice... Oh yes, there's a bit of drama there, he does like to be the drama king. |
| David: | Yeah, I'm just intrigued about whether it's Simon specifically or whether some of the other people who have problems in other classes would respond similarly if they came in here. |
| Candace: | I think they would, because seeing the difference in ... another bunch of Year 7s here, seeing the difference when they changed over into a new environment with a new teacher... (David: yeah, that's a similar experiment) It's unbelievable, it's absolutely unbelievable, I go in and teach literacy there, and it's a different bunch of kids. You know, there's a maturity factor 'cos we are at the end of the year, but I do think the personalities play... |
| David: | Mmm kids are really quite malleable at that....stage as well |
| Candace: | But having said that, fortunately, unfortunately kids have to learn, same as we all have to learn, that we've gotta get on with every type of individual and we're not all the same. So it wouldn't do for them to have seven Candace James' or seven David Geelans, because I don't think that would help them to go out into the real world. I think to have a Candace James then a David Geelan, then a Fred Bloggs, then a Jamie Jemima, whatever - I think that gives them a balanced view. Because I think they need that balanced view.... |
| David: | Do we narrow those parameters of normality and say "Only these kind of teacher we will allow to..." |
| Candace: | Of course we do - but then again, you've got the accountability factor: you can't have people who go and don't teach particularly well, who refuse to teach, or cannot handle the individuals, or are physical or whatever - you can't have that because of accountability. And this accountability factor is very good, because now people are accountable for their actions, but then again, it's bringing up a load of questions that never happened before. I mean the old thing of "Sit down, I'll whack you across the ears if you misbehave dadadada", it doesn't happen... |
| David: | How is it measured though? Do you think the ways that accountability are measured now are appropriate, that they work? |
| Candace: | No. No, I think we're gonna have to work on them, I really do. I think we've got a half - a mismatched system. We've got half of this old system, half a new system, and at the moment the kids are in... don't know whether they're in winter wonderland or in summer, they don't know, and I don't think the teachers know yet. I mean, I think I've got some direction, but I haven't changed my teaching methods, at all... |
| David: | So what about the parents then... in all of this... |
| Candace: | Well you see, being a cynic, parents would love to see - many of them would love to see them in little uniforms, boaters on their heads, going to school, sitting in straight lines, saying "yes ma'am, yes sir", popping home, doing their homework, and aren't I a good boy or girl. And that's natural... I think they want to see that, they don't want to see them coming out in sweatshirts and f'ing and b'ing and that sort of thing. They put in... because they've got a pre-emptive...they pre-empt what it should be, they have a view what it was in their day. Particularly if they're not teachers... |
| David: | Yep. So to what extent are we reactive to that, and to what extent do we try and challenge it? |
| Candace: | We're very reactive, because they're voters: (1) they're voters, (2) they pay taxes, (3) they can chuck out the um,... It's up, it's higher level stuff it really is. It all comes down to money and votes. I really think so. I mean look at the heavy whether we went through in this school - community saying "Oh, one shouldn't do this, one shouldn't do that" but we are winning, I think we are winning the war. We lost the battle, to start with, because we really got known as unbelievable interesting things, also including 'the poofter school' which was quite fun, but, no, I think we're winning the war, but the war is gonna take 20 years. It won't change overnight. |
| David: | Mmm, that'll probably take until... some of these kids are the parents. |
| Candace: | Yeah, either that or you have a dramatic change and [information] technology comes through overnight. And that's not gonna happen, even if Mr Court says it is. But I really think that we are... got a foot in both camps. |
| David: | Yeah, that's.... it's actually working, and that's ....one of the things is going to be, measuring the success of that. |
| Candace: | Having said that, I think it's working here. I think the kids are far more responsible, far more good. |
| David: | I guess the first question is: Do you think it's been a useful program to, um... Well has it been useful enough to cover the hassle of having me come in for science? |
| Andrea: | Well, it wasn't a hassle, because I don't have science in my degree or in my training, so having you come in and actually provide that support and the expertise was actually essential to me because otherwise the kids wouldn't have gone into the lab because I haven't got enough confidence to take 'em there. And the continuity in that program, particularly this last semester where we've had... you know, every week it's sort of been thematic and it's been relevant and it's been lab work and it's been great. |
| David: | Would you like to have seen that kind of approach come in earlier? To have... I guess in a sense me structuring it more... |
| Andrea: | Yeah. Well, I'm a structured person, so I appreciate structure, I appreciate being able to read up that this is what we're doing and... you know, if I have to do anything I know I have to have it lots of time in advance because I get anxious if I haven't got things ready, so yeah... |
| David: | Yeah, I think that was a thing of expectations, of me not knowing exactly what you wanted as teachers, and I guess you not knowing exactly what I was thinking and... So I guess that finally came clear in the final term of the year. |
| Andrea: | Oh it was great. (David: Oh, that's good.) It's not that it was bad before that, but it was better, for the structure and for the kids having the booklet full of ... you know, these were the activities. If they missed a week, well, that's what they missed and that's what they actually had to catch up on. |
| David: | Yeah. Is that one of the things you miss here generally - not so much relying on textbooks, it's harder to refer someone to something if they miss something? |
| Andrea: | Absolutely. Because usually you can say "Well we covered this chapter, or these exercises in that book while you were away..." And similarly if they're going away, the students usually, often do, you know, they're going on holidays with parents at odd times, say "All right, while you're away we're covering this much work, and you will have to catch it up." |
| David: | How did you feel about other areas that you're not a specialist in? 'Cos your area's maths isn't it? |
| Andrea: | Yeah, except that I'm a 'jack of all trades', because I've got a degree in economics, and I started out as a social studies, book-keeping and accounting teacher, and then I moved into school counseling - well actually I didn't get work as a school counselor I worked into remedial education, so that brought in English, so the social studies and English was covered. And then I went back to university and did maths - so three of the four core areas were covered. |
| David: | It really was everything except science that you felt... |
| Andrea: | Yeah, and health and Phys. Ed., but we can all do health, but Phys. Ed. was a headache... Once again I worked both semesters with people who were actually more expert - a lot more expert - in the field than I was, and I actually, I s'pose they carried me but, I mean I did my bit, but... |
| David: | Is that one of the things that you found useful - the team structure? That there has been support in areas like that? |
| Andrea: | Ah, yeah, that's right, because Carol was the volleyball person, and because I was working with her it didn't really matter that I didn't know anything about volleyball. (David: Mm, you could do some of the other tasks apart from coaching...) That's right. And actually the rules weren't difficult and once she showed me what they were I could then go and referee, well, sort of referee, matches. And similarly with, working with Peter Knightsbridge in softball - he knew about the game and I didn't, and it was a matter of... I actually did a lot of the organisation, you know, sort of scoresheets, all the stuff that he didn't have time to do so we actually worked quite well as a team, I think anyway. |
| David: | So you think you've probably learned a fair bit in the sport area - do you reckon you've learnt some stuff in the science area? |
| Andrea: | Oh, yeah, certainly. I've actually... learnt new things, and I've been reminded about things that I probably learnt when I was thirteen and forgotten. And I've actually really enjoyed being over there in the lab with them and watching them interact and get really stuck into doing some hands-on stuff, that was good? I really enjoyed the lab more than I did... here. 'Cos I sometimes thought "Oh, I don't know if I'm saying the right thing" here. Especially when I mucked up that parallax thing, 'cos I thought they were s'posed to be swinging it and they were s'posed to be keeping it steady. |
| David: | Yeah, I think that happened with all the various teachers... but I think... hopefully most times it was comfortable for the kids to say "Well, I as the teacher am not the expert, Mr Geelan's the expert in this area.." and whatever and I don't think the kids found that too difficult... |
| Andrea: | No, I don't think they did either. I think they're a lot more accepting... than maybe I would be in a similar situation, probably as a parent, that the teacher wasn't expert in the field they were teaching in. And that's because I come form a pretty traditional high school background where you expect the maths teacher to know the maths or... |
| David: | Yeah, I did have a student complaining the other day that he felt as though his teacher really didn't know enough maths to be teaching it, and having a real complain, so there are, I guess, some students who are uncomfortable with it, probably the more capable ones I think, who are not being challenged or reached or whatever... |
| Andrea: | Yeah, that's right, you're probably right... |
| David: | When I spoke to you earlier in the year you felt as though maybe this school wouldn't prepare them very well for Year 11 and 12 - do you still feel that way? |
| Andrea: | Um - this is off the record? (Laughs) Yeah, I do... I have strong reservations about having people like me, if you hadn't been here, having people like me design a science program and run one for Year 8. Because I've put three, or two children through high school, another one's in Year 9 currently, and I see what sorts of work they came home with and the sorts of things they were doing, and I wasn't competent to do that in science. It was lucky that I was confident to do it in the other three core areas, but... I would actually feel quite uncomfortable thinking that maybe my kid was being taught science by a mug like me, and I think that your contribution was invaluable from that point of view because I could say to them "I am a mug, but here's Mr Geelan, he knows what we're doing", and so that was... I felt that gave the kids, much better preparation. |
| David: | I guess the argument is that there are other things that balance out for the lack of content knowledge... |
| Andrea: | Yeah, but what do you do when you get to Year 10 and you've had - say you'd had me two years for science and you get to Year 10 and you get a real science teacher who expects you to know things. No, it's ... And the other thing is the assessment program - if Candace hadn't been here and you hadn't been here to sort of guide what sorts of testing program we had, I wouldn't have had a clue, you know. I probably would have picked up a textbook and religiously gone through chapter by chapter and sort of... hopefully made up questions that were relevant and could actually reflect what they'd learned. |
| David: | Yeah, that's one of the other things too I guess is, how do you find Outcome Statements all across the Learning Areas - is that fairly tough across all... |
| Andrea: | Yeah it is, and the other thing is, the Outcome Statements as they are, in the books of Outcome Statements are quite confusing sometimes, because you know that a kid can actually calculate the area of a square and a rectangle, but not a circle and a triangle, so what do you tick when you come to the box about 'Can calculate the area of plane figures', no he can't, but there's no box above it 'Can calculate the area of a square'. So I had a lot of difficulty actually placing them on the Outcome Statements. One in the algebra which really intrigued me, a Level 5 in outcome statements was actually drawing a graph in the first quadrant, and I had taught practically this whole class to do that, but they actually hadn't achieved Level Two when it actually came to understanding what they were doing. And so when I had to place them on a continuum, I didn't know what to do. |
| David: | Do you think the Outcome Statements don't discriminate enough? That - really only having five across the years, it makes it very difficult to... |
| Andrea: | Yeah, they don't discriminate enough, that's exactly right. And when I did a... actually one test I made my own up, I looked up the broad outline of what you're s'posed to know for each level, and made my own up, now that's OK, except that somebody else would make up another lot, and what do you do about that? I don't know. It means that I think the child is a Level 3 or Level 4 or Level 5, but somebody else might say "But if you go to the actual Outcome Statements he can't do this and he can't do that, so you can't actually do that..." So that is confusing. |
| David: | Quite complex, isn't it? One of the aims of what I was trying to do was to support people to the point that they did feel confident teaching science, do you think if you were staying here next year you'd feel more confident about teaching science, or would you still want some support? |
| Andrea: | I'd be more confident with Year 8, especially experiments that don't involve lighting gas burners (laughs) But there are plenty of kids around who are happy to light the gas burners I suppose, I'd just have to be more conversant with where the main switch is to switch everything off in an emergency. But, yeah, I'd be more confident with Year 8, but if I was taking Year 9 I'd have to have somebody like you come and help me again, 'cos I'd be in the same position, I wouldn't really be confident of the content. I actually feel - I don't know whether it's just a matter of pride or what it is - but I really feel that I need to prepare them well, you know, and if I think I'm not preparing them well I get anxious, and it's not good for anybody, 'cos if I get anxious I'm not as... easy to get on with, and the kids suffer. They suffer both ways - one I don't know what I'm doing, second I'm a bit cross about the whole thing anyway. |
| David: | Yeah, 'cos you don't feel on top of what's going on and you like to be. |
| David: | How have you felt the support from the science Heads of Area...? Again, off the record! |
| Andrea: | I only actually called on him once. That was the week you had the flu and Candace was somewhere else, and he was great. He swapped his program, and I showed him the experiment we were supposed to do, he raced around, he got the lab ready, because it hadn't been set up, got the food out of the canteen, came over, took Candace's class while I did something, took my class over and I went with him while the relief teacher took them... He was really good - a superb teacher isn't he? |
| David: | Yeah, Darshan is very capable I think. |
| Andrea: | Yeah. I probably couldn't have relied on that happening every week, but just the one time I did need him he was there and he was very good, so that's all I can judge. |
| David: | Do you think the program has been useful, in general, for me to actually come in and support the science side? Has it been worth the level of hassle of having to have that particular period locked in and that kind of thing? |
| Alyx: | Yeah, I think it's worked really well, I think... I don't think it's been a hassle at all at any time, and I think... even though there are times when people couldn't make it or whatever, it's never been a hassle. I just think it's been positive and good the whole way through and there's been things that you could offer that I certainly couldn't offer. I like, I really liked particularly the Waterdeep program that you developed with Candace. I thought that was excellent, I thought that really got a lot of scientific concepts and things across, and the kids enjoyed it, even... a when there was a lot of talking, sifting through ideas. Yeah, I think it was great. |
| David: | Was it a bit hard for the Year 7s, 'cos it was really sort of, I guess, designed for the year 8s... |
| Alyx: | Some of it was pretty hard for the year 7s, some kids... it would have gone over the heads of some Year 7s. But I don't think all science has to... they don't have to take it all in, I think if they have a touch and taste, and if they can see other people thinking laterally, I think that's also a good thing. And 'cos there was no test to go with it, I think... (Yeah, they're not disadvantaged by that...) Yeah (David: ...it's just an exposure), you can do that. I also think lots of things were... even though not every child had things in front of them, but certainly there was enough time to come up and play with the wheels or "spin this", or... Before you got there I would talk about centrifugal force and I would sort of back up - precede rather than... yeah. So... I think it worked really well. I think there probably... for the weaker ones, maybe... maybe I could have modified some of the stuff a bit more. But I think that when we spoke to the kids we spoke in Year 7 terms, we didn't try and bamboozle them with science. |
| David: | Would you like to have seen more structure like that for the rest of the year? 'Cos you're sort of quite positive towards that package...Do you think that would have been useful? |
| Alyx: | I think... no, I liked the idea of having structured lab work, and then the sort of philosophical questioning - I think there's a place for both, and I really think these year 7s need that grounding in the lab as well as this other stuff, 'cos you know, you have to teach to all dimensions, and the kids that love the lab work, and that couldn't quite come to the same level of understanding as the others in the philosophical thing about Waterdeep. I think, no a good mixture. Probably what I would do, if I did Waterdeep again, would be to maybe... get the kids to draw the spaceship, and get the kids to do a diary, all the way through maybe, and really embed it into the thing - that's something I could have done better... |
| David: | So maybe if you'd had it earlier, for example, before the holidays for the term, to have time to tie it in with other things more.(Alyx: Possibly, yeah.) And perhaps you're also still working on the skills of integration as well. (Alyx: Yeah, I am.) How are you feeling about all that? About the demands of teaching here? |
| Alyx: | (Motions playfully to turn off the tape) How do I feel about it? Um, where does this go to? |
| David: | Not Andrew! |
| Alyx: | OK. This is the hardest school I've taught at, I think - the demands here are huge, and that's why I'm going part time next year, 'cos I don't think I could cope full time plus study. I think that I'm getting better at it, I think the second year will be much better. I mean I've got a five year contract here, so they assume I'm coming back in 1998 as a full time teacher. But I'll... it's just a really hard school, lots of things to do - your mind is totally cluttered all the time, weekends, everything, with work from this school, after school... |
| David: | Do you think that'll change? Is it like going back to your first year of teaching again? |
| Alyx: | Absolutely, yep. I think it will change, but I think the individual has to change it too. I think if people stay here long enough, and don't live breath and eat this school, and are not married to the school, work out that you have to have some personal social life and then work out... |
| David: | So how are you feeling about... are you teaching science next year? |
| Alyx: | Yes I am teaching science next year. |
| David: | You're feeling more confident than... |
| Alyx: | Yep, much more confident. What I might do next year too, is use Darshan's replacement much more too, because I didn't use that person as a resource very often at all. I thought I knew it all from my science background but I don't... that's all very well having the knowledge but not knowing how to teach it and... I'll probably look toward that person more - also for more chemistry based and physics based stuff... so I'm doing more in the classroom. |
| David: | Did you feel like that support was there in the first semester, without mentioning names? |
| Alyx: | It was, I was too bloody busy to go and seek him out, I was just... shellshocked in this school. I mean if I'd started off... what I probably should have done at the start of the year was just to stick with Primary Investigations and done some simple stuff, and just taught primary school science, transitional science... but... 'cos there are so many tantalising offers here and you think 'Oh yeah, I'll try that...", and I did a lot of things... mediocrity rather than a few things well. Science is one of them I felt I didn't do a good job, I felt for the first six months I didn't do a good job here at all, in anything... it took me that long to really work out that I... do my best and I can only do my best, until you come to terms with it all. |
| David: | That's interesting to hear because from my perspective going across classrooms you're one of the people who's jumped onto it best (Alyx: Gosh!), the integrating thing, and there are other people that haven't... obviously you could see that you were struggling with it, but you were really making progress, and to see that at the end of the year you've really, I think, got it together quite well compared to... some other teachers. |
| Alyx: | Ta. Well, I think I did, 'cos we used Waterdeep across the SOSE and language and the environment and the whole bit, and maths. |
| David: | Does all the... are there benefits that make up for the extra work? Do you know what I'm saying? (Alyx: Hmm) There are certain benefits that are claimed for this school, do you think they're there, and are they sufficient to make up for how damn hard it is? |
| Alyx: | (Long pause) Gosh, I don't know. I think there is... I think there are great things being trailed here. I think, for me, there is too much going on here. Too much, and I don't think the advantages are outweighing the disadvantages right now, that's why I had to go part time. I think that there'll come a time when everyone's... when the Year 10s, 11s and 12s and everything has settled down we'll have some sort of feel to the school where everything will start to come into place, but ... Maybe it's my mindset, I mean I'm a primary school teacher and I also am, pretty abject to change, and it's been a big step for me to come here and to have to push myself again with all these things. Um, so quite honestly, no I don't think the advantages do outweigh the disadvantages for me... |
| David: | For teachers - what about for kids? |
| Alyx: | Phew, I don't know. In the long run - no, I don't think so. I think Year 7s get, if you have good teachers at a good school, kids would get as much, if not more because there's a gentleness about primary schools that this school doesn't have, and I feel it's more nurturing at primary schools, this school is quite difficult and hard, and kids are thrust in here, and I think kids... especially my class, 'cos I was feeling stress and pressure the first semester these kids would go home with stress just like I was - their mum or dad would come up and tell me. I think there's... |
| David: | Once the thing finally settles down? Because at the moment you've got kids trying to re- acculturate, you've got teachers... and you've got a clash between primary and secondary cultures and all those things settling down. Do you think maybe once it's all settled down and locked in place that it might have some... |
| Alyx: | I think it will be better. I still think there's room for... I'm a nurturer and I still think there's room for more nurturing throughout the whole school, and more care. I think curriculum's one thing and going headlong into things and having these great evaluations is one thing but I still think there's lots of room for care I don't see happening here. |
| David: | Why do you think that is? Because I think that would be a... something that they would value, that the people who set the school up would have wanted to be happening. Why do you think it's not? Just too much stress on the other curriculum stuff? |
| Alyx: | Yeah, I think so, I think the school's driven towards that... |
| David: | And I think the teachers are sort of on the edge ... because of that. |
| Alyx: | And also, those things can be evaluated in a tangible, and you can see it on paper, but nurturing stuff you only see it in the eyes of people and their hair looking shabby, or that sort of stuff, and the amount of sick days people take... but I think that's probably one of the most important things. |
| David: | What about nurture for teachers as well? |
| Alyx: | I think that's... I mean, I'm on the staff induction committee and ... on the computer I've got ideas for managing stress and what to look for and who to turn to and, just things that weren't talked about or were assumed... |
| David: | Do you find the team helps with that, or...? |
| Alyx: | Yeah, I do. Yep, I think - it's been really good, the team. More than any other group of people at the school, I think the team... plus then your friends that you gather here and talk to and... um, I think when you finally realise that you're not alone, there are people who are feeling exactly the same way but no-one voices it. If you're going down in a screaming heap there are about three of you who are down there picking yourselves up. |
| David: | Yeah, that tends to help I guess. Do you find the team itself tends to focus on curriculum stuff rather than nurture and support of teachers? |
| Alyx: | In the beginning we did. |
| David: | Yeah, I guess it depends on the team as well. |
| Alyx: | I was pretty happy with Cowan Team, we had a few little niggles but that's OK. I think though at this school you have to maintain a lot of your own esteem - you can rely on the team for so much but you can't rely on it for everything, and you have to delve into unknown strengths that you never knew you had, and get it all out, but I think they're there to support you and everything. |
| David: | As far as the kids in science, what are you picking up as far as their attitudes toward science at the end of the year? As opposed to what they've learned or whatever, how are they feeling toward it? |
| Alyx: | OK. I think they felt science was too much talk, I'm pretty sure. They want more fun, more change, more hands-on - like all kids do - they want more experiments, more time in the lab - they love the lab. And yeah, I think less teacher talk... Which is a shame... which is probably totally against what we were doing with Waterdeep, but then again in the student evaluation that went home with their portfolios, one of my children, David, loved Waterdeep, loved talking about it and listening to it. Now that just blew my mind, that he was so keen on that stuff that was so much talk - he really enjoyed that part. |
| David: | Do you think the whole activity has been valuable, of having some science support? And in what ways has it been useful? Or would it have been simpler with the timetable and whatever if you'd actually just done the science? |
| Carolyn: | Oh no, I think we did more lab stuff with you than I would have done without. It would have been good to go along more with the rest of the team, basically just for the support and because there was a lot of class swapping which would have been nice. |
| David: | Yeah, no, it sounds from what you have said that the rest of the team gave a lot of science support actually but... where I think the people I was working with in Cowan that wasn't the case, that really none of them felt ..... |
| Carolyn: | Yeah, see Steve has been doing it, so he's been writing programs and even taking Cassandra's kids to the lab while she did things, and you know organising stuff for Annalise and Giovanna. |
| David: | OK, so you could have locked in with that. I guess the other cost was being locked into particular times for science. |
| Carolyn: | Yeah that was... and it was unfortunate that we used to have it in the afternoons, especially Friday afternoon because that was just... |
| Carolyn: | Yeah, I think it was the lab work, that was good, to go over there cause I would never, I mean my big lab expression was melting wax to see solid to a liquid and back as well, that's about it. |
| David: | So I mean probably to have done more of that would have been useful. I think we did a reasonable amount but yeah to have been able to get to the lab as much as possible in a way would have been good. Mm If, I guess you're not going to end up teaching science next year but one of the things I was hoping to do was to support people, how would you have felt if you were doing it next year... to have taught science by yourself without support next year. Would you have felt fairly confident or still . . . . |
| Carolyn: | Well if I had been working with a team that I had this year I'd be fine. yeah |
| David: | Yeah, Did you feel that support from Darshan as well or well it wasn't so much needed cause Steve was sort of taking over? |
| Carolyn: | Well, see I mean first semester, Fred was sort of like gave out packages and stuff which were good, but then again cause we were doing separate programs I didn't really didn't seek their support, and same with Darshan, I mean he offered and that I said you know that I had you, so... |
| David: | I think probably at the beginning of... end of last term beginning of this term we sort of had that meeting with Fiona and tried to sort our expectations out a bit. I mean obviously there were things that I was being extremely slack about and unprofessional about and I apologise for those, and you know, I mean no excuses basically it's just dumb. But a lot of it too was expectation problems where you know every time you were doing a lesson. I was cheering because I was thinking, that I wanted to support you to teach science and you were spewing because you were thinking it was my responsibility to be doing it or something. |
| Carolyn: | Oh no, I wasn't spewing, it was more a case of a small part of it was, I've got this science expert at the back of my class, watching a non science expert. Do you know what I mean, and that was a bit, a lot of the time I felt like "I'm not doing this properly and that's what he's thinking". You know what I mean, he's sitting there thinking you know, "she's not sort of talking about that, she's not talking about that", which was one of the issues but I think a lot of it was.. again it goes back to expectations. I sort of expected more structure and support but then I got to the stage where I couldn't actually trust that that was going to happen so I would be running around first thing in the morning going "Fred have you got a chemistry book that I can get some lesson out of", because I still felt compelled that I should do science on a Wednesday even if you were there or weren't. Which I think maybe was the wrong thing to do, because sometimes it was a lesson for a lessons sake, because I didn't have the... |
| David: | Yeah it may have been better to blow the science off rather than, doing it without feeling confident or without having the stuff to do there. |
| Carolyn: | Well it was almost like, first term I felt fine with science because it was environmental biological science and it meant... I haven't got any science learning but, you know what I mean, I found that interesting, I could teach that with the resources that you know people shared around, but when it got to the chemistry, and I was thinking, no this way past me, but I think I probably could have bumbled along quite nicely with you know Annalise, Steve and Cassandra. |
| David: | Yeah, I think that one of the things that was really unfortunate was that all my doctor's appointments were on Wednesday and so that really cut into things and then I didn't really cover those and say "OK...here's some stuff to do" |
| Carolyn: | Oh I mean that's fair enough, you had a broken leg, like you can't jump off buildings... |
| David: | Yeah, in a way maybe that contributed to that feeling of not being reliable or not being able to rely on me to be there when I said I would be, and that kind of stuff and I guess that was hard to reestablish.... |
| Carolyn: | I mean I'm not the most organised teacher but in my own specialist area I can teach off the cuff, but with an area that I'm not ... I have to sort of like do my preparation and then have time to get it right in my head first, you know what I mean before I did it and sometimes I wasn't getting a chance to do that so that I felt like I was bumbling along. |
| David: | So really it would have been far better to have like a term long structure that was really clear and... |
| Carolyn: | With that environmental stuff, I found that - I think because I had a certain amount of content knowledge - I could see the structure of where we were heading do you know what I mean so I could one day you weren't here I thought OK we would do the carbon cycle. You know what I mean? |
| David: | Sort of continue ... |
| Carolyn: | And I could link it to what else we'd been doing, you know so that was OK but once you know, chemistry, you know I didn't know why a kettle boils so that was my extent |
| David: | I think probably one of the problems was that my expectations were extremely high of all of you teachers, to say "Well just go in there and bloody teach science", you know, and so I was trying to support you at a really high level of, you know, integrating and stuff like that when I should have been supporting you at the level of "OK, here's how we teach science", you know, and the content support. You know what I'm saying? |
| Carolyn: | I think the teaching skills, I've got the teaching skills... |
| David: | Yeah that's right. |
| Carolyn: | ...to get across, but I think that sometimes... I mean the ethos of the school is skills and process not content, and I think sometimes we got so bogged down in content that we weren't teaching the skills that go with science. You know things like we have had a whole year of science and the kids haven't done a report, a scientific report. Do you know what I mean. |
| David: | They did some in the chemistry section but... |
| Carolyn: | But not an individual you know, maybe my science experience were different but you know we were given a task to do and we'd go and we'd set up the equipment. Maybe this is a bit advanced for Year 8's but they have all the skills of doing the equipment, and so to me to make them independent... "OK this is what you've got to prove, here's a suggestion how to prove it, go and do it and then write up the reports". |
| David: | Yeah, so again I think my expectation was high of saying... you know, these traditional lab reports are sort of bottom line and then you extend but I hadn't... |
| Carolyn: | Yes, you actually have to start at the beginning, I mean you've got to know the rules before you break them, and I think that was one of the big problems. Like with, I mean, you know, the kids that are really into science, they coped but the ones who weren't scientifically minded or academically achieving that well they needed that more grass roots stuff. You know just simple things like one of the activities that they really, really enjoyed was when they actually got into groups to summarise a chapter of the book (David's note to my recall, they hated it!) and we were doing conifers and fungi and stuff like that. Now, they still got the content, but they learnt the skills of working in a group, coming up with the diagramming, the, you know, actually coming up with a page of notes that, and they loved it. You know it was keeping in all the literacy and literacy skills, group skills, but using a science content, and that type of thing I would have, you know ... |
| David: | Used more because it addresses.... |
| Carolyn: | Mmm, Used more myself. I mean I watched Cassandra do this great activity, can't remember the actual content. It was science but she did jigsaw's with them, the group, and the reporting back and the oral reports and all that type of thing. Where I could cope with that beautifully, using a science text, you know what I mean, but again we did bits, but I would have like to have seen that a little bit more. The same type of thing I use SOSE texts... you know like we'd be doing a newspaper article on population growth or something and we'd do sort of like summarising or graphic outlines, something from that text which I thought that's a perfect way to get science in and start discussion on science, you know. Like they did that, they did a graphic outline on the elements in chemicals, which Annalise did up, again they, the kids themselves found that, because they were doing it and they... you know there was only one kid in class who didn't finish it, you know what I mean? And they got the terminology out and they got the main points and we had gone through and done it step by step on the board, which would have been, I mean I know it's very literacy based but still it's a skill they need in all subjects. |
| David: | Yeah, no, I think the things that I did, as you have pointed out before, also were often too talky simply because either the preparation wasn't appropriate or I guess it just wasn't linking in because really I was coming in for that short period of time and it was hard to sort of link in with things that were going on, you know what I'm saying, that, and maybe I should have been making myself available so that we could talk more during the week and get things linked together and whatever. 'Cos I think there were lots of things that we could have done in this communication stuff in the last term that would have linked in better with what was going on in the rest of the week and so on. |
| Carolyn: | But I think there was lot of potential there and I think we just missed it, I mean as... I mean my attitude to science wasn't that crash-hot to start with, I mean I haven't had positive scientific experiences in my schooling, but it was sort of, you know, I think from Day One, when we sat here and had our first team meeting, and Fiona said, "Who'd like a PhD science, or science specialist doing his PhD...?" I was 'YES!' and my expectation was, this guy was really gonna come in and, you know, and help...but again, that's going back to expectations isn't it? |
| David: | Well I mean that's the kind of expectations that we should have got clearer at the start, and it's really unfortunate that it took as long as it did to do it, but..., and that it took as much frustration as it did to actually get to that point. But I mean that's something we've both learned about it, (Carolyn: Oh, yeah) that maybe we need to challenge those things really early, to say...and obviously the broken leg didn't really help a lot either. |
| Carolyn: | See I think the reason...one of the reasons I didn't bring it up to start with was, I just kept looking at you as the expert, "Oh, he knows what he's doing, he knows what he's doing..." You know what I mean? And I'm thinking, "I'm not the expert here", and... I think maybe it was my own, sort of like self-concept of, you know, "I'm no science teacher, this guy is... so therefore trust his judgment"? |
| David: | Mmm, where it might have been better to trust your own (Carolyn: To trust my own judgment) educational judgment and say, "There are problems here..." Um, but then again, would I have heard? At that point - I don't know.... |
| Carolyn: | Water under the bridge, eh? |
| David: | But, we learn (both laugh nervously) |
| David: | As far as the students went, what do you reckon? I mean obviously, Friday afternoon (the preceding Friday, when the students had left for the year. The feeling in Carolyn's room had been quite bitter and hostile, both from the students toward her and from her to the students.) wasn't that much fun and I actually got some of the snarls when you went out of the room, they had a growl... Given a couple of weeks to chill out, what do you think they'll think of their year? |
| Carolyn: | Oh well here's one thing - Peter, on his review sheet for the year, put the highlights down as 'Science with Mr Geelan', and I thought that's a nice...comment. From the laboratory moron - what did he do, pick up the tripod after he had it burning or something stupid. But no, actually one of the discussions we had last week was, they wanted to know how Year 9 was structured, and I said, "basically you've got your home room, you've got your two teachers, you've got your teacher for English and SOSE and your teacher for science and maths, and they sort of went "Aw, do we have to do science?", a couple of them, and I just said, you know, you need to take science, next year's science as a completely different concept from this year's science. And I said you know, whether you enjoyed this year's science or you didn't, don't let that cloud your view of science in general. I said you might latch onto some yahoo, wonderful science teacher and it'll all come alive for you. No, they didn't seem.... But I think a lot of it came - the kids saw it - I tried not to make it like that, but the kids saw it as "OK guys, put away your books, now we have to do science", because it was one of the only - besides arts and technology it was one of the only (David: Things that was locked in in the timetable) things that was locked in...and, because the Wednesday morning was the, again with the timetable was the only full block of time, and then they had LOTE, and as soon as LOTE was over they'd have science, but that full block of time was used to do the big fun activities, and then it was almost like, "Oh, the fun's over, now we've got science", but that was just ... |
| David: | Just one of the glitches of the timetable... |
| Carolyn: | Yeah, but... No, I think .... I think some of the little funny comments they used to make in their journals I found were quite indicative of how they felt about it. You know, people like Dean who, every single science journal he put was 'ho hum, science again', know what I mean, whereas he's very easy to motivate, to get going. What else - like Sarah and Debra, they used to like science because they could argue, they could actually argue among themselves about things? Which is fair enough, it's a good point, but when it came to content they weren't really that interested. It was more of a ... I think those three were really the brightest, you know, along with DJ and Christine maybe, and maybe David. The ones who were actually on-spot weren't motivated, they just didn't get connected with it. But then again, it was rather disjointed. And, my Friday afternoon is never the best time of my week, I'm afraid - I've got DOTT next year, Friday after lunch - but that was difficult. It would have been nicer if we could have been a little bit more flexible with the time. And also I think, because we actually had, I mean, first semester we actually had nearly six hours of science a week, I was thinking 'science overload' (David: very excessive, yeah), we were doing more... |
| David: | Yeah, and I guess we started off with the idea of maybe doing some other stuff and integrating and whatever, but it just ended up being this sort of long haul of science each week. |
| Carolyn: | Yeah, well just "Put your book away and get your science book out", it wasn't...I mean we tried, especially with that environmental stuff we did quite a bit of other stuff linked around the environmental stuff we were doing in science but, again, it was because I was from a position of strength basically, I sort of semi-knew what I was talking about. But then I think, sometimes I could actually see... I couldn't see the links between the content and the module that we were doing. I mean again, first term was, you know like the environment stuff which was good, and then there was that space stuff, which again the kids really enjoyed, and I could see the links there, but after that, I couldn't see... |
| David: | Yeah, I think one of the problems that a lot of people have noticed this year is that the modules are all on very similar topics. You really... the science, is really environmental science the whole year, and you can't do it, so yeah, it does get fairly tenuous at some stages. And in fact I think it got so tenuous that it broke, you know, and there really wasn't a link between the science and the other stuff, which is.... |
| Carolyn: | See I think the whole school needs to consider that, I mean surely you can integrate like, literacy and science and social science, but you can't go for broke and say, you know (David: Integrate everything), integrate everything, because like maths, I mean, occasionally you might integrate maths with something else, but it's a separate subject and it needs to be.... |
| David: | Yeah, and the links become so long and so tenuous that the kids are going "Oh bullshit", you know... |
| Carolyn: | Yeah, exactly. But um, I think... |
| David: | Well, take it from there - what about other teachers in your position? Coming in, having to teach science and having no support? How would you... |
| Carolyn: | Having no support... I think, any teacher worth their salt can teach anything, with the right effort, and.... |
| David: | Is it too much though? I mean, other teachers I've talked to it's been flat out doing all of the things that they've been doing and it's just taken 99% of their life... |
| Carolyn: | I dunno, maybe I'm slack but... (David: Sorry, carry on, I interrupted) It's like...SOSE I sort of got into my head what concepts I needed to teach, like the objectives, I looked at the outcomes and stuff and actually decided "OK, these kids have gotta be able to research, and get a concept of time and change", you know what I mean? And I actually made up a list of like six or seven real SOSE concepts that they needed, and then I thought "OK, what a subject I can actually teach all these concepts around?", and we decided on castles, and the kids loved it, and they got all their ... everything they needed with SOSE. And I figure that I probably would have done the same thing with science. Sat down with the outcomes and actually said "OK, what are the basic skills they need to have" |
| David: | I was going to say, one of the problems with the science outcomes at the moment is that they are still half in terms of content and half in terms of skills - they've done that much less successfully than the other learning areas, so .... |
| Carolyn: | But then again, that's like SOSE, there was a list of skills and a list of content, and... say when I was teaching maths, I said to Fiona, give me that list of areas I need to cover and I will cover them, in my own way in my own time, but I will cover them - and I think it would have been the same, I mean, you know, if I hadn't had you I would have said to Fred, come on just....I mean, I'm talking here a 20-point list to cover the year, so that you can work your way gradually through, and you know that next week you've gotta look at energy, then you go and find a science book with energy - it may not be the best resource it may not be the most up-to-date resource, but... you're getting the kids thinking about it, reading about it, doing things. So as I said, any teacher who can teach can teach anything. I mean, this school proves it I suppose. |
| David: | Do you - when I spoke to you in the middle of the year you weren't too sure about the concept (of the school), about whether it would prepare them adequately. |
| Carolyn: | Oh, these kids have got no content, compared to the other schools. I mean, bits, but I think they do have the processes and skills to get that content themselves. |
| David: | You think that, on balance, it works? |
| Carolyn: | Yeah. I mean I still don't think I've done the kids justice this year in a lot of ways. I mean, I was quite thrilled when my kids got level 3s and 4s in algebra and I thought "Hey, I taught them this" - they'd never even heard of the word before I got to them and now they're actually level 3, and I thought, well if I can do that, I mean if you can teach algebra you can... I mean you saw me teaching algebra, it was... Quite an experience but it was actually a good experience because I did feel like those kids came out with what they need to know for Year 9, and I think it's the same type of thing in science. There were certain things that I remember doing in science and actually enjoying, and I would have liked to have seen the kids do that as well. Like one of the things the other Green Team did - they did electricity, and I always remember really enjoying making the light bulb light up. Again, that's a very practical thing that I thought, you know if I enjoy it, a non-science person's enjoyed it then it's quite a... it would have been good to do with the kids. And in a way I was a bit jealous, well, not jealous, but I was thinking "my kids are missing out on this, and maybe they won't get to do it in Year 9" - you know what I mean? Because it's presumed.... (David: That they've done some of that stuff already). I've forgotten the question now... |
| David: | You were just talking about how you felt about the year in general, about their experience I guess. |
| Carolyn: | Again, I mean in any teaching it's hard not to be enthusiastic about the things you like and you put on this false sense of enthusiasm with the things you know you just have to teach, and I think... obviously sometimes my attitudes weren't... "shit, here goes science again" you know.... |
| David: | And I think the kids did read that sometimes.... |
| Carolyn: | Oh yeah, of course. But then again, it's hard to... control your mouth and your tone all the time, but... I suppose the year's over, it's done, hopefully the kids aren't scarred by it. |
| David: | I think kids are amazingly resilient actually... |
| David: | The other thing I wanted to talk about just a bit was the team, the operation of the team, because there were some sort of conniptions in the middle of the year, but... whether you feel like that's settled down now or whether it's.... |
| Carolyn: | Um... I think, looking back on our team I think we've got a brilliant team of teachers, and I respect every single one of them, and... it is a... I mean we had problems in the beginning, basically because we were given a team leader and then the team leader was taken away. And we had to cope without, and then we had a team leader who was so worried that she wasn't doing what she could do for us, that she was bringing problems on herself, and it was getting our back up. But as soon as... I mean that day when we just pulled it all out on the table was just a revelation and it's been really cool since. The thing is I think again, um, as - I was speaking to Andrew the other day and he was saying that "The Green Team's full of Level Threes", you know, strong personalities and we knew what we were about and what we wanted, so we were quite independent of the school, but we also knew when to really on each other. |
| David: | Yeah, and I think that it didn't ... in a sense the meeting in the middle didn't change it back into a standard team, but it actually let everyone value the way it was already working. |
| Carolyn: | Yeah, it made us use the resources we had on hand, and I think we - as I said, Fiona could go off happily, knowing that we were coping without her, which was a weight off her shoulders, and (David: It was another expectations thing in a way) and we weren't looking at her for things that she couldn't give us. |
| David: | Yeah, she wasn't expecting stuff of herself that she wasn't able to do either. |
| Carolyn: | So we just did it ourselves, and I think as a member of the team we've just been so lucky with the standard of professionalism in the group, of, and sharing resources, 'cos there's heaps of teams around the school who, you know, haven't given one worksheet (David: Yeah, just sort of done their own thing), and I think that's just so sad, because I mean my, I mean high school English teaching is ... you know, a full on preparation with all the reading plus all the marking. And I've done less preparation work here than any school I've ever been in, and that's purely because I can rely on the other team members. I've done a lot of the English and SOSE type tasks and content here, whereas my maths in most cases was given to me, one off activities were given to me, health was, you know we'd negotiate it and all that type of thing, so it was a case of, just being really lucky to be... Once we sorted those problems out it worked really well. |
| David: | Did you think my... stopping coming to the team meetings was a positive or negative move, in the long run. |
| Carolyn: | I think a positive thing, I think sometimes the other teachers who were coping with their own science felt that you were intruding to a certain extent because, you had nothing to do with them. It wasn't directly relevant to them and they couldn't see - that was one of the big problems about our team meetings, when other people came in, and they'd be coming up with these whiz-bang ideas, and we're sitting there "Hang on, we're the ones who have to teach this, so we have to know what we're doing here", and I think that was one of the things that, came up, and I think, again, right at the beginning of the year when they said we were going to have this science specialist coming in, we presumed that there would be this person with this amazing amount of resources would appear, you know, this bottomless pit that we could pick at and get all this stuff, but that didn't occur, so... it was like, almost like getting your hopes up and then having them dashed on the rocks of, you know, not having this person who's going to come in and be a big whiz-bang science teacher. |
| David: | Yeah, and I think that expectation that I would be working with the whole team was sort of, yeah, I'd set that up but then it didn't end up, (Carolyn: You were supposed to be with the whole team) the role didn't end up evolving that way, whether because of the way the team was working or whatever, and I think Steve did take that role because he's got the science stuff and he was in here all the time, whereas I was only here those couple of days... |
| Carolyn: | But I think, again, Steve isn't a science specialist he's a language specialist but, being a primary school teacher he's had that experience over the years but also he was doing it at such a simple level we could actually understand it. |
| David: | Exactly, and I think my expectation of levels and things, and whatever... and I wasn't providing support at that simple level because I was taking it as read when I shouldn't have been, I think that was the main problem and therefore people didn't rely on me and therefore I wasn't reliable and so... whatever, and so it was a sort of a synergy of a few things rather than.... |
| Carolyn: | I mean I've taught out of my area quite a bit over the years and I think, as long as you've got a structure to follow, you make it through for a while, and then when you're feeling a bit more confident you can start stringing out. I mean I taught A-Level English History in England, and I was just going "hahaha, this'll be a laugh", but I had a text book and I had an outline, and the first couple of weeks was just "Read Chapter Six, write a review", but then I got more confident and I could actually start looking at other textbooks and other sources, and using videos and things like that, but again it was a case of, with a gentle nudge, I felt quite confident. |
| David: | I think the other thing for me too was that people were expecting me to have resources, but I've never really taught Year 7 and 8, and I've never taught in WA, so I didn't really know the texts and resources for here, that were... that people were looking to me for... it was texts and stuff, and I really had no idea... |
| Carolyn: | Then also sometimes when I sat at the back and watched you teach, my frustration of the lack of actual teaching, and more of the - regurgitation of facts. Do you know what I mean? There wasn't - the interaction wasn't there and the... maybe just the basic skills that I've been taught, or that I've learnt, that you need to get the kids going weren't there, and I found that very frustrating, to sit there and think "Oh, if we could do this with this information", you know what I mean? Or have a quiz, or set anything... |
| David: | Yeah, and I'm sure some of that was from, not proper preparation and some of that was from bad habits picked up from lecturing, 'cos you know, the last couple of years I've been lecturing in teacher education (Carolyn: Oh, yeah), so I tend to just default into lecturing, which is not good at all at this level. |
| David: | OK, I think that's all we really need to talk about, unless there's anything you specifically want to say. |
| Carolyn: | What was your research on again? |
| David: | Um, Life, the Universe and Everything (laughs). I was looking at my own teaching, and at the values the school aims for: collaboration, student-centredness, life long learning, all that good stuff. I was trying to understand, in a rich way, what things support those values and that kind of teaching, particularly in science teaching, and what hinders it. |
| Carolyn: | I think maybe the kids needed to know more about that. They knew that you were doing this research, but they didn't really know what you were looking for. Some of them came up to me and asked about it, and I told them to ask you. But I think it made them uncomfortable that you were observing them but they didn't know what you were observing... |